Remove or unify "sorry" strings about smf HOT 12 CLOSED

There may also be cultural-linguistic factors at work here. The English word "sorry" has a semantic range that often surprises and confuses people who are not first-language English speakers. At one end of its semantic range, "sorry" can be used to express a strong apology in the sense of "I have done wrong to you and I wish to reconcile our relationship." At the other end of its semantic range, "sorry" can be used to express sympathy regarding events that the speaker had no involvement in at all, carrying a meaning of "This thing that happened to you is sad and you have my condolences." Most other languages do not use the same word to express both apologies and condolences, since those are actually quite different things, and therefore non-native English speakers sometimes find it quite confusing.

In this case, we are dealing with a sense of "sorry" that falls somewhere between the two ends of its semantic range. In these error messages, "Sorry, but..." is intended to have the sense of "I wish I could do what you want, but it isn't possible." It isn't exactly an apology, since the software did nothing wrong, but it's more than just an expression of sympathy, since these are matters in which the software is directly involved in not giving the user the desired outcome.

So for the English strings, leaving "sorry" in the error messages is appropriate. (The exception is that instance of "I am sorry," which should change because "I am" in this context implies a level of personal agency that isn't appropriate for an automated message.)

For other languages, the best way to translate these uses of "sorry" will vary from language to language. For some languages, a translation using a weak sense of apology might be appropriate. For others, a translation using a sense of condolence may be more appropriate.

from smf.

This issue is directed at the original language strings in English, and generally the original English strings should not be based on translations - but the other way around.

If we want to discuss the language and meaning behind the original English strings, Irisado, Illori, Kindred could be good resources to turn to for opinions - If we want to discuss translation, I would say that they are mostly up to localization and the translating / language moderating team members to direct as they see best.

from smf.

Agreed. The use of "sorry" in these strings is appropriate in English. If it is inappropriate or awkward in other languages, translators can and should feel free to use something else or to leave it out.

After all, "sorry" isn't conveying vital information in these error messages. Instead, it's purpose is to establish what linguists call the "tenor" of the message. Tenor is basically the social/relational element of any communication. In this case, the purpose of including "sorry" in these messages is to communicate polite friendliness.

When translating these error messages, translators should aim for a similarly polite and friendly tone. How exactly they should do that will vary from language to language. Such decisions are left to the discretion of the translator.

from smf.

I have no strong feelings one way or the other, but I do believe it's considered good UX to keep a friendly tone when something goes wrong, and instead of simply stating facts try to guide the user towards what they should do next. Keeping this in mind, saying sorry when we failed to deliver a response the user was expecting, isn't necessarily a bad thing. It can be the difference between the user getting all sorts of pissed, and the user actually reading the rest of the message. I do agree, the "I am" is maybe too much, we aren't building Skynet here.

from smf.

Between humans, I agree, tone/politeness is important.

But software apologizing seems weird (unless it matches the theme, but AFAIK, even Jenkins doesn't do it, for example). I can't, from the top of my head, remember any other site/software that does it the way SMF does. Saying sorry implies empathy and feelings. A person that says it might try to find alternative solutions.

And especially in the case of "X doesn't work" or "you are banned", the "sorry" could also be considered snarky ("Sorry (not really), and I can't and won't do anything about it...", "Didn't you read the manual where it clearly said you need to install module Y?", "You know what you did to get banned...").

Using "sadly" or similar might be slightly better, because it doesn't imply feelings on the software side (although that could also be interpreted as snarky).

from smf.

Generally, I think apologizing makes sense when the system (software, server, settings, admin) is at fault, so when something is broken, or impossible because the install lacks dependencies/resources, or something is disabled that otherwise would be possible. These are the situations where the user has done nothing wrong. But I'd really like to see some discussion and opinions on this. It's an interesting topic, and there's apparently even some existing research around this that I could find.
https://ux.stackexchange.com/questions/31359/should-error-messages-apologize

from smf.

I think to add, in some cultures, apologies are an admission of guilt. I'm not sure how the translators are handling it, but I assume they are removing the apology in that case.

from smf.

In can be tricky at times.
In spanish we are using plural which could feel weird as if the admins are telling you this message.
And using singular is even more strange because the software is not a real person.
In english is definitely very neutral.

Removing them could help increase consistency.

from smf.

If it works better in Spanish to leave out the "sorry" bits, I think the Spanish translators should feel free to do so.

from smf.

Showing the strings as “outdated” would be a good encouragement in multiple languages to update it accordingly instead of trying to please the original strings.

from smf.

An additional suggestion I have is to create a new topic in the Translations board to discuss this issue with other contributors. Others will have important opinions on the matter. For instance, I'd like to hear what Irisado thinks about this.

from smf.

I'm going to go ahead and close this for now. If subsequent discussion on simplemachines.org leads to a decision to change the English strings, we can reopen this then.

from smf.