small target palettes miss key colors about upng.js HOT 16 CLOSED

this GIF is a perfect illustration of the problem. the goal i'm trying to achieve is to make sure that no single part of the image has significant, visually obvious errors. diffuse/distributed errors are visually more pleasing than drastic concentrated mistakes. this is not just my opinion, it's why error diffusion dithering works so damn well (when evaluated by humans rather than machines).

if you ask a computer, then you're right - the cumulative sum of all RgbQuant errors is greater than UPNG's. but if you ask a human, then they'll ask UPNG, "i don't care that the grass is greener, where the f** is the yellow?".

RgbQuant aims not to make drastic localized mistakes rather than aiming for algorithmic purity, and this GIF shows that it achieves exactly that.

from upng.js.

So you are saying RgbQuant gives a better result than UPNG? But why? Have you tried to calculate the difference with the original? Which one is "closer"?

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So you are saying RgbQuant gives a better result than UPNG?

subjectively, it does. (though the current RgbQuant code is much slower..i'm going to work on this and try some new ideas). the original image very obviously has prominent yellow and orange colors, which are completely absent from the UPNG palette - and no dither can fix this. RgbQuant's palette captures the fundamental colors much better; i don't think we need anything except our eyeballs to see that.

Have you tried to calculate the difference with the original?

i did not, but if i calculated it and it turned out that the cumulative error of UPNG was smaller than that of RgbQuant, then i would seriously question the validity of the automated metric (in this instance).

from upng.js.

If we were to talk about which image is more pleasant to our eyes, we would argue here for years.

You have to specify an exact metric, a mehtod, which will tell, what image is better. Without such method, there is no point in changing anything, since we don't know what we want to achieve.

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Also, the grass in the UPNG version is much nicer! :D

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Also, the grass in the UPNG version is much nicer! :D

it is! but the premature loss of essential colors in the palette is, in my opinion, a fundamental failure of a color reduction algorithm. to me, the extra detail in the grass is much less obviously noticeable, and much less important than losing a significant and obvious part of the color wheel. i expect to lose detail and have colors bleed together, but i don't expect drastic color elimination when it can clearly be avoided. plus, a lot of the missing spatial detail can be recovered by dithering the RgbQuant version, whereas nothing can be done to recover colors from a poorly chosen palette.

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"essential", "significant", these words do not mean anything, I think my palette is better :D

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ok, we'll agree to disagree :), but i cannot use the palettes generated by UPNG to attain the dithered results i'm looking for.

from photopea/UNN.js#1 (comment):

But you can use UPNG.js only to get a palette, and generate dithered images yourself.

this turns out to be untenable.

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I am not saying your palette is better or worse. But you should "have numbers" instead of describing your feelings.

Could you at least compute the difference with the original photo?

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the results are visually obvious to me. i would run SSIM for you if i was on the fence, but i'm very firmly in the "retaining distinct colors is critical" camp. if you want an objective metric to be convinced, then please run it on the attached images.

if UPNG's primary objective is filesize and compressability, and the target palette is rarely < 256 colors, then the results may very well not matter for this project; you don't market UPNG as a color quantization lib, it just happens to include one as a means to a specific end.

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I still think there can be many people finding my quantization nicer than yours. I am very sad, that your conversation moved to arguing about "religion" instead of "science".

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there's no religion here. i specifically linked to a paper that describes exactly the limitations of partitioning quantizers and methods of solving them, but instead of acknowledging that this is an issue, you prefer to argue why it's not an issue, that everything is subjective and that i need to prove it to you with an automated metric. if you don't visually see the obviousness of the concern from the attached images, then i don't know what further to say. i'm not the first person on earth who's noticed this as a problem, considering there's active research into solving it.

I still think there can be many people finding my quantization nicer than yours.

i encourage you to take a survey amongst your friends, family or Photopea's userbase, rather than asking SSIM. SSIM is useful when a visual inspection is not obvious, and even then does not reflect many facets of human perception and psychology. if i show someone a rainbow and it's missing red, then anyone who've ever seen a rainbow will ask "where's the red?", and no one will say, "look at how nice the blue is!".

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I made a GIF, which shows the differences of quantized images with the original image.

I think the goal of quantization is not to produce a beautiful image. The goal of quantization is to produce an image, which is as much similar to the original, as possible, using the limited number of colors. If you decide that "blue should be more bluish" or you artifficially saturate colors, I think it is not what quantization should do.

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my point is, https://www.hindawi.com/journals/cin/2016/5302957/ shows how you can potentially improve UPNG to avoid this issue, but you're saying there's no issue. so what's left to talk about?

this is not about RgbQuant vs UPNG. it's about what UPNG is today and what UPNG could be in the future.

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I do agree, that in UPNG, there is a big error at the flowers. There is definitely a space for improvement. But I still think the result is way better than your library. And you didnt even try to dither the result of UPNG.

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And you didnt even try to dither the result of UPNG.

dithering does not add colors to a palette, so if my concern is lack of yellow hues, dithering will not fix that. it may help, but yellow is so different from anything in UPNG's palette that the results will be worse than what i know is possible.

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