Reinstate updates of OrganicMaps on F-droid app store about organicmaps HOT 98 CLOSED

Personally I am fine with that AF. Yes I know it is ridiculous, but it shouldn’t make you give up on F-Droid.

We are not fine with this AF. It is not just ridiculous, it was a random unpredicted one-person act that wrongly mislabeled the whole application.

If this misleading, ridiculous label is not removed, we'll give up on F-Droid to avoid confusing our users.

from organicmaps.

@rtsisyk what the problem to just remove link only from F-Droid build? I guess only FOSS community is so strong hating this. Other people don’t care. I think there is not much users who will book something through F-Droid app and you already removed referral code so you are not having any money from F-Droid version. Why not to remove link?

Is there any reason for keeping it? I think this is the most simple solution

from organicmaps.

If this misleading, ridiculous label is not removed, we'll give up on F-Droid to avoid confusing our users.

Who confused? If someone confused with this put dislike to me, if you are okay with that AF put like to me. Let’s see how many people think about this AF.

For now it looks only like devs idea that not really supported by community

from organicmaps.

Update is live on F-Droid.

from organicmaps.

This whole situation looks like infinite loop. Developers don’t want to do anything - users don’t want to have link.

I'd suggest you don't speak for all users. I think most users wouldn't mind it if they ever even see it.

As for why this is stuck, this is my read of the situation, which can easily be wrong:

The devs feel that F-Droid's classification of the link as an ad is wrong, and they are upset that Organic Maps got slapped with that label in the first place. IMO it's only natural to be upset, when 3 versions or so of their app get a label that is so opposite to the project's goals.

Regarding the conduct of F-Droid maintainers, in my opinion it has been mostly fine and I am convinced by the the technical definition of "ads" to fit the link, but it must be said that "this app contains ads" is making a mountain out of a molehill. This is one link in the whole app which many (most?) users will never get to see, as it only appears in hotel nodes.
With F-Droid's current anti-features there's no way to tone down the label, the main thing users will see is still "this app contains ads" which is simply a misrepresentation, as it conjures up a lot of ideas about ads that are just not true. The explanatory text is not enough to dispel these thoughts, both because it's currently cryptic, and because users only get to see it if they go looking for it, and IIRC it's not even accessible in the web front for F-Droid.

So there's a discussion to be had about improving the labelling options in F-Droid. But for the short term I think it's best to assume that they are what they are, and that F-Droid could not allow this link to go unlabelled regardless of how small it is. Under these assumptions, F-Droid maintainers have been completely reasonable and open in the discussion for ways to resolve the situation and I think the OM devs should engage in this conversation, get it resolved in the short term in a way that both sides can live with for now, and perhaps work towards a better labelling system for an improved situation for both sides in the future.

But I wouldn't be surprised if they already tuned out of the conversation because from their perspective F-Droid as an entity was being draconian about the labelling. And this is why I think this is stuck. It's not an infinite loop, it's a dead connection.

If my read is correct - and again, it might not be - the animosity needs to be resolved before the actual issue is. F-Droid needs to acknowledge that sometimes its labelling is draconian and can be misleading even if technically correct. OM needs to acknowledge that the link actually is, technically, an ad according to most definitions, even if there's a world of difference between it and what most people consider to be ads.

As for how to reach this agreement - I'm afraid that's where my people skills end...

After some time I didn’t received a reply for my email with ideas to solve this situation. I even wrote to their chat, they replied for bug report but without any response to my complaint that my email was ignored. That’s ridiculous.

Continuing from above and slightly repeating, right now F-Droid's expectation is for OM to conform to its rules, either begrudgingly or by understanding. But understanding hasn't worked out in this case (yet; see above), so the options left for OM are either accept a label that they feel they can't accept, or remove/change a feature that they feel is innocent. In either case, from their perspective, F-Droid gets its way without ever considering that it could have been wrong. I really think it could go a long way for F-Droid to acknowledge that its rules and labelling aren't perfect and too black and white, and show intention of improving it down the line.

Disclaimer, in late December I contributed a big translation to OM, and I still didn't get to see it in the app because I get it from F-Droid. So I'm technically a contributor to OM but have never met any of the main devs or even talked to them. My opinions are my own, and my conjectures about how people think and feel is not based on any interaction with any individual. It might be me projecting my own feelings.

from organicmaps.

@NeatNit To clarify, please check FDroid PR here: https://gitlab.com/fdroid/fdroiddata/-/merge_requests/14482

• NonFreeNet AF is already merged, personally me is ok with that
• Kayak link without ref code is not an Ad AF and not a blocker (at least I don't see any objections from FDroid maintainers, not anonymous)
• There is no clear answer what stops merging this PR https://gitlab.com/fdroid/fdroiddata/-/merge_requests/14482#note_1764915899
• Looks like F-Droid wants to rename/rephrase app strings (according to the discussion). I think this is not the right way

from organicmaps.

Stop blackmailing users. You went too arrogant and possessive.

Let me give you an advice, you will never achieve what you want with ad hominem attacks like these. You are the one acting like a child by thinking that you are entitled to everything. The devs have a right to decide how their apps will be represented to users, and want OM to maintain a positive connotation (i.e. no AF labels). But you wouldn't care about that since you aren't the one replying to the support emails that @biodranik mentioned. No one is forcing you to use OM, and the devs aren't forced to put their app on F-droid.

If you are so concerned ... and add option to switch server.

What a great idea! Incredible that no one has thought of implementing such a basic feature. But I'm sure you will help the development with your donations, right?

from organicmaps.

what the problem to just remove link only from F-Droid build?

If that is what OrganicMaps prefers to PR #6720, I also offer my time to work on PR for that (although if OM devs prefer to do it themselves, that is also fine, of course!). I'm pretty certain removing Kayak button completely would allow updates to restart in F-droid.

Also, if some more complex solution which takes long time is preferred long-term, would one of above suggestions be accepted as short-term workaround (until ideal but more complex solution is implemented)?

I'd just hope for some constructive feedback regarding the issue from OrganicMaps leadership. If neither of the two options above is acceptable to them, I'd like some open talk about what would be acceptable and how to go forward. I don't think prolonging having outdated versions is beneficial to either OrganicMaps users or OrganicMaps team (or F-droid).

(I'd also hope that upvotes on this issue (second highest of all open issues in last 365 days!) would show it is worthy of some attention by OM devs / leadership)

ping @biodranik @rtsisyk @vng (please also invite whoever in decision-making process is involved)

from organicmaps.

@kojid0 as I understand it from this PR #7262, it was about $100 altogether for that December/January period (including Christmas/New Year season, which is likely above average in income). Unfortunately that PR #7262 "alternative" does not solve the privacy issue at all (like #6720 would, by giving user a preference to choose whether they want to be exposed to Kayak or not).

And yes, issues croundfounding would be great.

@kudlav Too bad Bountysource is dead, or it would've been easy. But anyway I'm not sure if paying developers money to remove anti-features is a good idea. It kinda gives them wrong kind of incentive (e.g. "hey, if we're low on money, abusing users some more so they'll pay us to stop doing that will bring some funds").
I'd much rather pay them to implement useful (user-privacy-respecting) features!

Also, I've since offered OrganicMaps to volunteer¹ my work on that abandoned PR #6720, but still no response (I'll update here if they accept that offer or suggest which other PR would be acceptable to them)

(Not directed to anyone in particular: I'd like to invite people from both sides to please refrain from unnecessary taunting of each other and engaging in name calling. I'm no expert in Sociology 101 by any means, but I'm quite sure that such behaviors won't lead to good results for anyone. Sincere questions and suggestions made in good faith are of course always very welcome!)

from organicmaps.

We serve map files using nginx. [...]

So, this is the main thing that I definitely agree the antifeature is horrendously unclear about. But it turns out, the web server can be 100% FOSS and transparent (which it is) and the AF would still apply, as happens with StreetComplete and Wikipedia for example. This is because...

Addresses of servers can be replaced in private_defaults.h file. The feature of changing servers in runtime is tracked in #4232. AFAIK nobody is working on it at the moment.

... This is the only reason the label applies - that changing server requires recompilation. As I said, there are other wonderful apps that have this label for the exact same reason. This criteria is not unique to OM, far from it.

See https://gitlab.com/fdroid/fdroiddata/-/issues/553#note_565181896 , relevant quote from two years ago so well before this was applied to Organic Maps:

But, I keep seeing the recurring theme of "but you can recompile and replace the server URL" which is a red herring imho.

See link for full context, if needed.

The timing of when this AF was marked is awful, but after I originally argued that this label is wrong and had the above explained to me, I've come to agree that the label is consistent with how it's always been used and what it's intended to mean. It's only not been marked before because it wasn't noticed.

I hope I have answered all the questions. There are 10 more anti-features to go. How often do we plan to release new seasons of this show? Has any open-source streaming service already signed for the remaining 10 seasons? Where can I get my share?

What motivation do you think they have to do that? Is there a competing maps app that they prefer to promote? Is there another reason why they'd want OM out of the repository? I don't see it. As someone said in one of the F-Droid threads, Organic Maps is welcome on F-Droid, but AF labels come with the territory.

The labels are consistently being applied whenever they are even remotely relevant, that's what F-Droid does. I don't like it much either but I understand why they do it. It's just incorrect to say it's treating OM differently than any other app.

from organicmaps.

I might be wrong, but it seemed to me that the app providing a possibility to get hotel info is still considered useful for travelers.

Edit: Dear thumbs-down fans, please activate brain power before killing the messenger...

from organicmaps.

Automatic F-Droid updates have been re-enabled on our side since the last Tue

Either I'm missing something, or you're missing something, or you're deliberately ignoring it. If I understand correctly, the referral code was removed from the Kayak links with the expectation that this would allow removing the Ads antifeature on FD. It's been clearly explained on the GitLab issues that this is not enough - the link is still considered an anti-feature. Has anything changed after that regarding Kayak?

If not - will you (OM devs) allow F-Droid to continue to do its thing and host OM with the antifeature labels? Personally, I think you should. It doesn't mean losing.

It's important to note, as I have only come to realise in the past couple of days, that F-Droid marking anti-features is not a sign of being unwelcoming, it's just what they do. They are extremely strict about it (when/where they become aware of them or find them), and many of the best apps have marked anti-features, including StreetComplete and Wikipedia. When looking at FD's responses, it doesn't seem like they want to push Organic Maps out of their platform; they just want to label it according to their rules (which are definitely stricter than I think is useful), same as any other app.

If you could rewrite the explanatory text for why each AF was marked, would it be easier to swallow? Here's my quickly-written suggestions/drafts:

Ads: When viewing hotels, the app includes referral links to a third-party website for booking.

NonFreeNet: The app is hardcoded to download maps from [URL], and this cannot be changed, although the source code for the server is Free.

Note that I had a long debate about NonFreeNet, and yes it is horribly misnamed and they are aware of it, but it is being applied fairly and correctly. Many apps are marked with it for the exact same reason as OM, and from what I can tell the only reason OM hasn't been marked with it before is that it was missed. I.e. it should have applied from the start. They are supposedly working to split it into TetheredNet (for OM situations) and NonFreeNet (for apps that work with non-FOSS servers), but I have no clue when that's likely to come. Suffice it to say, Organic Maps is not alone with this tag.

I understand that these labels feel misleading and are somewhat misleading, but from my perspective I don't see it as a reason to burn the bridge.

P.S. I'm having trouble keeping track of who's who and who said what (I've never been good at this sort of people skills), so my apologies if I have things out people mixed up or missed key conversation.

Edit: I forgot to say some important things I meant to say, so I'll write another comment for that

from organicmaps.

Users are confused on the web. Users are confused even on mobiles. All builds of OM are wrongly and misleadingly labeled. That is not helpful, it harms. It also causes users to ask us, what happened. Answering every question takes the extremely limited time that otherwise could be spent on the project development.

I have zero tolerance for any type of misleading information about OM.

There is still a chance to improve the situation.

from organicmaps.

1. the currently used maps server/cdn is free and open source already, so logically it shouldn't warrant NonFreeNet, but only TetheredNet
2. if map files will be distributed via F-Droid only (i.e. if its non-configurable by user), then by their logic it will warrant NonFreeNet anyway :))
3. F-Droid repo is not a CDN for files distribution, its an overkill and an inefficient overcomplication to distribute maps like this

from organicmaps.

The things I wanted to say is: accepting the labels is not the only option. In this comment #7218 (comment) or thereabouts, @mnalis suggested 3 options and offered to write the code for whichever is selected (I don't know if this offer is still up):

F-droid antifeature declaration / adding OM user preference to hide Kayak / removing Kayak links only in F-droid OM release

First option is what I said above. The middle option is #6720, there's discussion about it there. The last option - remove the link in F-Droid build - sounds acceptable from my perspective, but some OM devs seem to strongly disagree.

I really think that choosing any of these options is infinitely better than burning the bridge with F-Droid. It's senseless.

from organicmaps.

May I close this issue now?

Actually not before someone has confirmed that the updates are working again (according to the issue title). On my phone there is no change yet.

from organicmaps.

@biodranik you are behaving like a child. You caused huge fuss with kayak, now you want users not use F-Droid version. Stop widening only your own opinions and ambitions on all of us. If you are unhappy - not our fault.

Personally I don’t want to have a head ache with downloading APK, using very heavy Obtanium or something.

I am not confused. Even other dev said to stop talking on behalf of everyone:

If you are so concerned about this, you can just remove Kayak link from F-Droid build completely and add option to switch server.

Stop blackmailing users. You went too arrogant and possessive.

from organicmaps.

If the developers had gotten over their pride and admitted that they had added anti-features to the app, there would be no problem now. And yes, issues croundfounding would be great.

from organicmaps.

I think is perfectly fine if you don't want to update the app on fdroid directly, especially given their unfailr labeling, maybe the easiest alternative is to have your own repository (similarly to what newpipe does), so that people can continue use the fdroid store but receive the updates directly from you

from organicmaps.

Hi, OM.

Can you please consider to remove kayak link completely?

Please, stop this. You are causing troubles for AOSP users without proper support of F-Droid.

I know that you think you are doing right and I don’t want to discuss who and why right. Please simply do anything to run updates again. It is horrible that now it is a problem

from organicmaps.

Automatic F-Droid updates have been re-enabled on our side since the last Tue: 88dcf15#diff-1f8c2efdf10072dc6d80f2356e6f70e652ca1bb383de76459b3d1dd5ca41a745R1

from organicmaps.

So we can, based on your okays, remove the K section entirely? Or would @biodranik and @rtsisyk come thundering and threaten to pull OM from F-Droid afterwards?

From your internal past interactions it looked like, while you are a contributor, your don't hold the decision power in OM. Sorry if I read this wrong 🙂

As I stated some time before there is no consensus between OM developers on a kayak topic..
Its true that I don't hold any "keys" to the project, only the co-founders do.
So if by "OM devs" you mean only the latter ones, then its only @biodranik, @rtsisyk and @vng indeed.

from organicmaps.

It's an interesting approach to count only registered Github accounts as a community and exclude a million of our app's users.

from organicmaps.

I don't see what you mean by the label not being clear. ...

You are right. I was a bit surprised as well but now I know what happened: I had seen the list of possible reasons in the F-Droid settings (where you obviously can select which should apply for you or something). But you mean the information given at the end of the app description which I had overlooked as it seems. Yes, this one is specifc. It might not mean a lot for some users (even after reading the linked details) but that´s all F-Droid can do I think, so it´s okay.

Users are confused on the web. Users are ...

This post collected a few dislikes ... for a reason maybe ... but if I read it correctly it at least contain one message I also mentioned: It´s about communication. It´s not about the WHAT but about the HOW the WHAT is communicated. My feeling. There might be different opinions about the WHAT but the way it´s made transparent (or not) to the regular users could be improved I think. The second question would be how much effort it would mean to get from ... mabye 70% confusion level down to 20% or something (you´ll never reach 0% anyway). No idea. I am just a user.

Okay, maybe everyone should calm down again ;)

from organicmaps.

@biodranik stop being childish

Even if you do this “anonymous” everyone knows that it is you.

People unhappy not about referral link (your funds is your deal - I have no clue with that). People unhappy about Kayak link at all. Even if you removed referral link - it is still an ad.

When you argue with F-Droid devs - you make your app less and less trustworthy.

from organicmaps.

I'm a bit confused, will the February update appear on F-Droid or not, as things currently stand?

from organicmaps.

This whole situation looks like infinite loop. Developers don’t want to do anything - users don’t want to have link.

After some time I didn’t received a reply for my email with ideas to solve this situation. I even wrote to their chat, they replied for bug report but without any response to my complaint that my email was ignored. That’s ridiculous.

from organicmaps.

@NeatNit you're mostly correct. But you've missed one important point. We have already removed the affiliate code from the experimental Kayak button in FDroid two weeks ago. Even if we don't get any affiliate cents from bookings made using this button, this is an important and useful feature for our users. We did not consider it as "the app contains ads" even with the affiliate code, not speaking about the current situation where the Kayak button is exactly the same informative link as a hotel's website, its Facebook, X, or Instagram page.

The PR that builds and publishes OM update for FDroid was created four days ago, but instead of merging it and publishing the release, OM on FDroid got a new unfair anti-feature label and new requests on what and how we should develop our product, and where we should put our (extremely limited) time and resources. If someone wants a custom OM version for himself, building OM from sources is very easy, because it is FOSS. Map generator code is also FOSS. We only ask do not use the "Organic Maps" name in such cases.

It's sad to see that Organic Maps is not welcomed anymore on FDroid (at least by a few people who actively label OM there with unfair AF and approve it in the FDroid repo without even asking, listening, or trying to clarify FDroid's own rules).

In the worst case, we are considering offering our users alternate ways of getting the latest, timely updates without using any app store.

from organicmaps.

See, code: https://gitlab.com/fdroid/fdroiddata/-/merge_requests/14482/diffs 🙂

but there's a discussion around it, in which the OM devs are not participating

I'm one of the OM devs :)
(and the creator of the MR)
and I'm participating actively there and asking questions what are the options to move it forward and waiting for a clear answer :)

from organicmaps.

NonFreeNet: The app is hardcoded to download maps from [URL], and this cannot be changed, although the source code for the server is Free.

I've suggested a similar clarification

Depends on a maps download service (cdn*.organicmaps.app) which is free and open source, but is not changeable by a user.

https://gitlab.com/fdroid/fdroiddata/-/merge_requests/14521

from organicmaps.

@pastk

Back then I've suggested (https://gitlab.com/fdroid/fdroiddata/-/merge_requests/14082#note_1666432871) a following text for the Ads AF:
Some hotel features have an explicitly disclosed affiliate link to an external booking platform.

I've merged what was in the MR iirc, I have no issue with your suggestion

Same for Depends on a maps download service (cdn*.organicmaps.app) which is free and open source, but is not changeable by a user

We can amend as needed, of course.

I'm one of the OM devs :)

So we can, based on your okays, remove the K section entirely? Or would @biodranik and @rtsisyk come thundering and threaten to pull OM from F-Droid afterwards?

From your internal past interactions it looked like, while you are a contributor, your don't hold the decision power in OM. Sorry if I read this wrong 🙂

from organicmaps.

@krza Whatever makes you happy, but that is not on this project's side

That´s why I wrote (according to the issue title). The issue is about reinstating updates but not about preparing something to allow that.

from organicmaps.

No, this was just a side note ... I will keep waiting. I ment the warning from the screenshot which is irritating for a regular user because it does not come with any helpful information because all information is generic but not specifically focussing on the app. So even if you read all the pages you still don´t know why your specific app was tagged, and for that reason you cannot judge if you should see a risk there or not.

In English it says "This app has features you may not like" (I assume that's what the German text says in the above screenshot too). Right below that is a button called "More", which expands the app description, and then below the full description it has a full explanation for how the "anti-feature" applies to Organic Maps. Right now this text is:

This app promotes or depends entirely on a non-free network service

Depends on a maps download service (cdn*.organicmaps.app) which is free and open source, but is not changeable by a user.

I don't see how it could be any more specific. It's not generic at all.

After the update comes through the description should update to what I wrote above, i.e. it will look like this:

This app promotes or depends entirely on a non-free network service

Map download service (cdn*.organicmaps.app) is free and open source, but not user changeable. Hotel widget includes a link to kayak.com not contained in original map data.

Again, super specific.

from organicmaps.

I urge OM to adopt a code of conduct for anyone interacting with this project. Nobody should tolerate receiving harassment.

from organicmaps.

Instead of just criticising people do something to help. For example I shared some written code here:
#4232 (comment)

Maybe it will help

Thank devs for app and please do not remove app from F-Droid :)

from organicmaps.

I'm lurking for some time on OM's progress here on GitHub, from before the Kayak-fuss.
I don't care about every issue ticket that gets created, just those that catch my eye.

ATM, new posts regarding referral-links spawn concerns in me about tedious repetition.
Fortunately, as a user and not a dev, at least I could choose to not read them (but I did, bummer).

I certainly wouln't like to repeatedly respond to demands (sometimes unfriendly, uninformed, based on assumptions, etc.) of changing something that is still in progress at several fronts.

Im sure OM devs would be happy to have something new to respond (even if just to stop the fuss) instead of re-explaining what was already said, which almost certainly would result in backfire, repeatedly.

Accusing the devs to actively ignore the situation and/or users is not the conclusion i'd come to (if any). Maybe their non-existent public relations department sucks and needs staff.
Also, ditching F-Droid is probably not something they'd want. It would be a loss.

I'm not saying complaining or criticizing is bad, and I would love to see the situation change in a way I'd be comfortable with, but demands, assumptions or the likes are deconstructive tools.

from organicmaps.

I wonder how many people actually use this button and how much money you earn from kayak. I'm sure you'll make more money by crowdfunding certain github issues. I'm willing to donate if I know that work is being done on feature XY.

from organicmaps.

from organicmaps.

I'm a bit confused, will the February update appear on F-Droid or not, as things currently stand?

Yeap, it will!

• necessary things done on OM side b158a54
• just need to enable the new update if F-Droid https://gitlab.com/fdroid/fdroiddata/-/merge_requests/14482

from organicmaps.

@pastk

Yeap, it will!

That’s good, but as I see you removed refferal code from that link only on F-Droid version? Am I correct?

If it so, why you kept the link in F-Droid version? Without referral code you have nothing back from it. For now it casing more income for Kayak and nothing for OM and its community. Maybe it will be better to remove the link totally from F-Droid version? If no, can you please share arguments why not?

from organicmaps.

That’s good, but as I see you removed refferal code from that link only on F-Droid version? Am I correct?

Correct.

If it so, why you kept the link in F-Droid version? Without referral code you have nothing back from it. For now it casing more income for Kayak and nothing for OM and its community. Maybe it will be better to remove the link totally from F-Droid version? If no, can you please share arguments why not?

Sorry but I don't know the answer either.
Its a question to @biodranik and @rtsisyk

from organicmaps.

I might be wrong, but it seemed to me that the app providing a possibility to get hotel info is still considered useful for travelers.

That sounds like the only possible explanation to me indeed.
But looking at all the feedback it seems that there are very few (if any) F-Droid OM users who actually welcome/want/use this feature. The bulk of the feedback is that users don't want it / consider it an anti-feature.

from organicmaps.

• Open source code of your server part

Looks like you've missed this bit of information in my post: the map server is free and open source already (and had been like this for years)

from organicmaps.

@pastk so… Can you post it on GitLab providing all “proof” links? This will solve misunderstanding. Thanks!

I did already and they don't challenge the fact the server is FOSS. The issue is that their primary reason to adding AF was inability to change server url by a user (aka reliance on a single instance which is not controlled by a user). Which might be a concern by itself and its fine to inform users about it. But IMO it has nothing to do with the current "non-free" focused definition of this AF.

from organicmaps.

Okay, as I had asked in #7367 (see above) already ... is there any timing for a solution for F-Droid? I cannot see anything here which indicates a nearby date.

Actually I don`t care where I get OM from. I just want to use it. So if I have to change to Google Play Store ... okay ... but how to preserve all the settings, favorites and map selections? It would be great if there would be a quick workaround and an according how-to which would prevent me from continuing waiting for a final solution.

from organicmaps.

Automatic F-Droid updates have been re-enabled on our side since the last Tue

I had seen conflicting information about this here in the thread and thought that the one which assumes that it would not work was right at the end. In fact I cannot see any change on my side. I tried this morning and did not find a way to update. That´s why I dropped post above 2 hours ago.

Actually I also wanted to mention that I wonder how a user can see that an app is flagged as "anti-feature" or something. Because there was no according sign – until now. While writing this I opened F-Droid again and now find a text there which obviously mentiones that (second red loop below). So this is clear now. Why it was not there so far I don´t know. Maybe it came through the reboot I did today (however I had done one a few days ago also).

Nevertheless I still don´t have the "Update" button but only the "Open" button (first red loop) which tells me that I am still not able to update. Or is there still anything I overlook?

My descriptions might be a bot too detailed but on the other hand I often had the issue myself that other users sow something on their screens which I could not imagine, and both sides thought it was completely clear. This way it was always difficult to help.

Edit: Sorry, NeatNit that I accidentally sneaked between your 2 posts ;)

from organicmaps.

If not - will you (OM devs) allow F-Droid to continue to do its thing and host OM with the antifeature labels? Personally, I think you should. It doesn't mean losing.

I apologize, but it looks like that all these so-called "anti-features" labels are coming out of thin air on the regular basis that I don't have time to follow.

What is wrong with Organic Maps on F-Droid in the second season of the show? 👀 NonFreeNet? Ok... I am reading "Non-Free Network Services" section from https://f-droid.org/en/docs/Anti-Features/:

This Anti-Feature is applied to apps that promote or depend entirely on a Non-Free network service which is impossible, or not easy to replace.

We serve map files using nginx. Nginx is a BSD-licensed open-source web server available in almost any Linux distro. Install it, place *.mwm files into the right directory, and that is it. Addresses of servers can be replaced in private_defaults.h file. The feature of changing servers in runtime is tracked in #4232. AFAIK nobody is working on it at the moment. Maybe nginx is not free enough because F5 Inc. is an evil corporation that sells appliances that can serve ads and track people. This falls outside my area of expertise and I probably need to call a lawyer.

I hope I have answered all the questions. There are 10 more anti-features to go. How often do we plan to release new seasons of this show? Has any open-source streaming service already signed for the remaining 10 seasons? Where can I get my share?

from organicmaps.

https://gitlab.com/fdroid/fdroiddata/-/merge_requests/14482#note_1762100220

And how is it related to the topic of enabling automatic updates?

from organicmaps.

I can see that https://gitlab.com/fdroid/fdroiddata/-/merge_requests/14482 has been merged. I didn't get what was blocking it.

https://gitlab.com/fdroid/fdroiddata/-/merge_requests/14482/diffs#7cb037d3b02a37774fad142f9e1c3e70878711ce_2_2

AntiFeatures:
NonFreeNet:
en-US: Map download service (cdn*.organicmaps.app) is free and open source, but
not user changeable. Hotel widget includes a link to kayak.com not contained
in original map data.

Just for recording: I object to such usage of NonFreeNet AF label for the both of described cases.

from organicmaps.

If fits neither of cases? Interesting...

from organicmaps.

If fits neither of cases? Interesting...

My opinion that the current usage of NonFreeNet AF label is inappropriate in the given context.

from organicmaps.

May I close this issue now?

from organicmaps.

@krza In project management and as a best practice of bug triaging, issues are closed when all work that needs to be done by one party is done, which is the case.

Imagine if in LibreOffice, we only closed our bugs when every single user updated their local installation to get the bug fix. It's impossible to know that for us, and we would never be able to manage our queue.

from organicmaps.

Unfortunately it had been worsened by F-Droid adding another inaccurate "This app promotes or depends entirely on a non-free network service"

@pastk and other developers. Personally I am fine with that AF. Yes I know it is ridiculous, but it shouldn’t make you give up on F-Droid.

As alternative:

• Consider creating Telegram/Matrix channel only for APKs
• Consider posting situation description why this AF on FAQ, Website and forget it. It is not critical AF

from organicmaps.

. Maybe nginx is not free enough because F5 Inc. is an evil corporation that sells appliances that can serve ads and track people

Cool story. https://mailman.nginx.org/pipermail/nginx-devel/2024-February/K5IC6VYO2PB7N4HRP2FUQIBIBCGP4WAU.html
Sorry for this offtop.

from organicmaps.

I think this issue can be closed

from organicmaps.

@krza see https://gitlab.com/fdroid/wiki/-/wikis/FAQ#how-long-does-it-take-for-my-app-to-show-up-on-website-and-client

There I had read this:

• a build cycle currently can take up to 72h (hard limit)
• apps are manually signed after that (if not reproducible), and then uploaded
• next build cycle starts after signing is completed

So the 72 hours are over now. According to the above description I assume that the signature and the upload are the next steps which have not been done yet though. At least it´s not visible yet in F-Droid.

Regarding the AF discussion, thus the label which the users see in F-Droid ... I personally find it quite irritating, especially because it´s not specific at all at the first glance and also not at the second one. At the third one you might have found a list of potential root causes but even this list does not help because you don´t know which of those items apply to your specific app.

So yes, I think it´s valid to inform the users about the fact that an app does not fully comply to the F-Droid ... ideas ... but the way it´s executed and obviously also the way how a decision for such a label is made ... might be kind of questionable.

And yes again ... it´s not easy, and there are many opinions and much more apps, so you cannot expect that each single app is treated the very same way because the effort would be much too high to ensure that. But if suspect cases are discussed afterwards (like here) and potentially corrected/changed, it´s fair enough I would say. Thoughts from a complete outsider / pure user ...

from organicmaps.

personally find it quite irritating, especially because it´s not specific at all at the first glance and also not at the second one

I think I could tolerate it. It will be worse if there will no OM on F-Droid

from organicmaps.

Regarding the AF discussion, thus the label which the users see in F-Droid ... I personally find it quite irritating, especially because it´s not specific at all at the first glance and also not at the second one. At the third one you might have found a list of potential root causes but even this list does not help because you don´t know which of those items apply to your specific app.

I don't see what you mean by the label not being clear. The label will say: "Map download service (cdn*.organicmaps.app) is free and open source, but not user changeable. Hotel widget includes a link to kayak.com not contained in original map data."

Sounds really clear to me.

from organicmaps.

I really like this app. I was even helping developers with this project (before kayak links appeared). I know that anything needs funding, but there is not about links of money.

Developers simply ignore users on mail (or I am the only one who got ignored?), don’t reply to threads, don’t care about community opinion.

Then we got “Locked” and deleted discussions.

Now they want to ditch F-Droid only because of AF tag. That is extremely unfortunate and very disappointing.

You told that you prioritised community but for now everything on the contrary.

from organicmaps.

Desperately need F-Droid version. Google sucks. Even if disabled

from organicmaps.

Hoping there's a path forward here.

from organicmaps.

I also hope there is a way forward.

I've been using updates through Organic Maps to see if my contributions to upstream OpenStreetMap are correctly displaying (since sometimes OSM edits seem to be fine on a browser, but are not coming up correctly on Organic Maps and other mobile apps using OSM).

On F-Droid, the absence of the early January 2024 update and the disappearance of the last 3 versions (only leaving 2023.09.22-27-android from September 2023) doesn't set a good stage for this way of obtaining Organic Maps. If I don't receive any 2024 update for Organic Maps by mid February, I might have to consider updating Organic Maps through Aurora Store until this is resolved (but hopefully not, since I don't want to figure out through direct trial & error whether or not this will function with SeedVault).

Also, I was hoping to encourage (in parallel) the usage of Organic Maps and F-Droid in my communities, but this is an edge case that makes the case for libre/freedom respecting alternatives weaker than Google Play/Aurora Store.

from organicmaps.

Just patch it out of the f-droid version, I imagine we're the minority anyways, so profit-wise there wont be much of a difference.

from organicmaps.

@biodranik stop being childish

Even if you do this “anonymous” everyone knows that it is you.

People unhappy not about referral link (your funds is your deal - I have no clue with that). People unhappy about Kayak link at all. Even if you removed referral link - it is still an ad.

When you argue with F-Droid devs - you make your app less and less trustworthy.

This thread is not locked. You are welcome to discuss relevant topics. I apologize for any inconvenience.

from organicmaps.

Adding the Anti-Feature flag is the easiest way. IMHO the correct way.

Technically easiest perhaps (as it has been done previously afterall, so no extra work is needed)...

I'm not so sure if it is the best way though; after all the F-droid folks seem to want to respect the wishes of OrganicMaps leadership, whose last request AFAICT was to suspend F-droid updates with last "clean" version, until some solution acceptable to both sides can be found (rather then inform F-droid users that "Hotel features have paid referral links to Kayak not contained in original map data" in newer versions).

Unfortunately (judging by this issue and others I can find) it does not seem that acceptable solution has been found yet. I've suggested three¹ different ways to solve the issue to OrganicMaps leadership (and offered to write the code for them), but still have no feedback from them which version they prefer (or if they have some other suggestion) and if they'd like my help with that if they're low on manpower.

I'm a bit confused, will the February update appear on F-Droid or not, as things currently stand?

@NeatNit You can see latest version of OrganicMaps in F-droid at bottom of this file:
https://gitlab.com/fdroid/fdroiddata/-/blob/master/metadata/app.organicmaps.yml#L1565

Currently it still says CurrentVersion: 2023.12.20-4-FDroid unfortunately.

from organicmaps.

As for why this is stuck, this is my read of the situation, which can easily be wrong:

Thanks for the detailed overview, I mostly share your vision, with a few additions/corrections.

The explanatory text is not enough to dispel these thoughts, both because it's currently cryptic, and because users only get to see it if they go looking for it, and IIRC it's not even accessible in the web front for F-Droid.

Actually in the F-Droid Client (which is the most popular way of accessing the F-Droid repo) the AF flag itself is not very visible, one has to tap on the "more" button to expand the app's description, then scroll past it and there will be the "Contains Ads" text together with the explanatory text. Its true that the explanatory text display is not yet implemented in the web front (and its not a major way of using F-Droid).
(I agree that the explanatory text could be improved)

If my read is correct - and again, it might not be - the animosity needs to be resolved before the actual issue is. **F-Droid needs to acknowledge that sometimes its labelling is draconian and can be misleading even if technically correct.

Unfortunately it had been worsened by F-Droid adding another inaccurate "This app promotes or depends entirely on a non-free network service" AF label to OM (because OM depends on non-configurable map server apparently, but the label ignores the fact that the map download service is FOSS). With a similar "technical" reasoning that a more precise ""TetheredNet" AF hasn't been deployed yet. See https://gitlab.com/fdroid/fdroiddata/-/merge_requests/14491

from organicmaps.

In the worst case, we are considering offering our users alternate ways of getting the latest, timely updates without using any app store.

@biodranik I was meaning to suggest what @MarcoFanti89 said - maybe just dedicated repo akin to NewPipe and voila - you control what you publish and users can enable the repo easily. There is also IzzyOnDroid which gets official builds from github. Looking at the inclusion criteria it's mostly boils down to privacy/tracking so the offending Kayak link should be ok-ish (???)

from organicmaps.

Could the maps binary data be distributed as part of the F-Droid repo?

from organicmaps.

Could the maps binary data be distributed as part of the F-Droid repo?

Distribute map files via F-Droid repo? What's the point and how its relevant?

from organicmaps.

Could the maps binary data be distributed as part of the F-Droid repo?

Distribute map files via F-Droid repo? What's the point and how its relevant?

The point is to avoid been tagged with NonFreeNet AF.
The reason why the app itself doesn't contain the map data in its packaging is to save space on the devices and transfer costs, but as the application and map data version are so tightly coupled, specifically the map version can't be newer than the app version (i don't know exactly but it seems that the app keeps backwards compatibility at least for the previous version of the map data.) for me it make sense to distribute as a module of an app. And doing in the Fdroid infrastructure would solve this issue.

A user can't update the data (at least the distributed with OM) without updating the app itself. In theory, a user could build the map data itself (don't know if anyone is doing this, maybe someone who don't want to wait for the next month data) (I used to do it for my Garmin before using OM).

from organicmaps.

Okay ... sorry for being picky and talking about such trivial things only ... but why does F-Droid still not even show the current versions on my phone?

So it does not seem to know that there are later versions available at all and for that reason does not provide an upgrade option.

from organicmaps.

@krza because your version is NEWER that those that F-Droid knows about.

You've updated before the OM devs asked F-Droid to remove those 3 newer versions that were marked with Ads

from organicmaps.

If you could rewrite the explanatory text for why each AF was marked, would it be easier to swallow? Here's my quickly-written suggestions/drafts:

Ads: When viewing hotels, the app includes referral links to a third-party website for booking.

NonFreeNet: The app is hardcoded to download maps from [URL], and this cannot be changed, although the source code for the server is Free.

Personally I like your description versions, just a correction that the referral code was removed from the F-Droid builds, so "includes referral links" is not correct any more, its just "includes links".

OM developers can't change those descriptions, its done on F-Droid side.

from organicmaps.

because your version is NEWER that those that F-Droid knows about.

Okay, that probably clarifies why it proposes the first one from September although I have the one from December already. However, this does not seem to be true/valid/effective yet, is it?

from organicmaps.

@pastk

OM developers can't change those descriptions, its done on F-Droid side.

that was never the/an issue

@krza discussion is ongoing in https://gitlab.com/fdroid/fdroiddata/-/merge_requests/14482

from organicmaps.

discussion is ongoing in https://gitlab.com/fdroid/fdroiddata/-/merge_requests/14482

You mean the discussion about the availability of updates in F-Droid? With regards to that the discussion there is not better than this one here to be honest. So in fact there is no clear information/confirmation yet that it should work in F-Droid again.

from organicmaps.

With regards to that the discussion there is not better than this one here to be honest.

that is a Merge Request that once "merged" will allow the update to be build and published.

See, code: https://gitlab.com/fdroid/fdroiddata/-/merge_requests/14482/diffs 🙂

but there's a discussion around it, in which the OM devs are not participating

from organicmaps.

Okay, thanks. So I read "request" and "allow" there. I "translate" it as follows: Either the merge request has not been completed or there is something else which prevents to build and publish the code. Let´s hope that the first is true and that we get the new build latest end of February or early March (with the regular schedule) or even earlier.

from organicmaps.

Personally I like your description versions, just a correction that the referral code was removed from the F-Droid builds, so "includes referral links" is not correct any more, its just "includes links".

Right, my thinking when writing that was: since the ads AF was going to stay anyway, you might as well add the referral back in. But if the referral stays out regardless, the word can be dropped.

OM developers can't change those descriptions, its done on F-Droid side.

Right, but it seems to me like it's totally possible to say to them truthfully, that the current text is not very clear/precise and to suggest an improvement. I've never tried it and I don't know if it'll be accepted, but I'm just trying to help reach some kind of understanding between F-Droid and Organic Maps, so this is what I'm going with.

Edit: so from OM's side, is there acceptance to allow listing it with these tags under the condition that the descriptions are updated with my suggestions (subject to tweaks)?

from organicmaps.

Right, but it seems to me like it's totally possible to say to them truthfully, that the current text is not very clear/precise and to suggest an improvement. I've never tried it and I don't know if it'll be accepted, but I'm just trying to help reach some kind of understanding between F-Droid and Organic Maps, so this is what I'm going with.

Back then I've suggested (https://gitlab.com/fdroid/fdroiddata/-/merge_requests/14082#note_1666432871) a following text for the Ads AF:
Some hotel features have an explicitly disclosed affiliate link to an external booking platform.

It wasn't accepted.

Edit: so from OM's side, is there acceptance to allow listing it with these tags under the condition that the descriptions are updated with my suggestions (subject to tweaks)?

My position on this is different than the one of the co-founders, so its better to get their answer directly.

from organicmaps.

@licaon-kter :
So we can, based on your okays, remove the K section entirely?

Could you please explain what issue this solves?

from organicmaps.

@rtsisyk https://gitlab.com/fdroid/fdroiddata/-/merge_requests/14482#note_1762100220

from organicmaps.

@krza Whatever makes you happy, but that is not on this project's side

from organicmaps.

@krza see https://gitlab.com/fdroid/wiki/-/wikis/FAQ#how-long-does-it-take-for-my-app-to-show-up-on-website-and-client

from organicmaps.

@krza see https://gitlab.com/fdroid/wiki/-/wikis/FAQ#how-long-does-it-take-for-my-app-to-show-up-on-website-and-client

Thanks for the link. Did not know the details but it matches my assumptions more or less.

from organicmaps.

... we only closed our bugs when every single user updated their local installation ...

You are right. But that´s why I wrote someone – which is at least 1 single user but not every single user ;)

Okay, however, I believe that it will work. So it does not matter if we close it now or in 3 days or something.

from organicmaps.

I read the wall of text and I don’t understand what happened.

What are you discussing?

Non free AF? Ads AF?

What stops you to remove that link? Sorry if I making you feel uncomfortable.

from organicmaps.

It's an interesting approach to count only registered Github accounts as a community and exclude a million of our app's users.

You can make an online poll. Like typeform. And share it through all community channels.

from organicmaps.

I don't see what you mean by the label not being clear.

I mean this: #7218 (comment) (screenshot). Maybe I had used the term "label" wrongly.

from organicmaps.

@krza if you're talking about the fact that the app isn't updated yet - that has nothing to do with the anti-features, it's just F-Droid's usual delay as explained by the FAQ you quoted. Some F-Droid OM users might be a bit confused by it until it's resolved (hopefully today/tomorrow), but I don't think anyone is to blame, it's just the results of what happened. After the update comes through I think everything will be clear.

from organicmaps.

@krza if you're talking about the fact that the app isn't updated yet - ...

No, this was just a side note ... I will keep waiting. I ment the warning from the screenshot which is irritating for a regular user because it does not come with any helpful information because all information is generic but not specifically focussing on the app. So even if you read all the pages you still don´t know why your specific app was tagged, and for that reason you cannot judge if you should see a risk there or not.

from organicmaps.

@fitojb our dear “dislike putter”. Love ya 🤣

from organicmaps.

I urge OM to adopt a code of conduct for anyone interacting with this project. Nobody should tolerate receiving harassment.

This project follows the CNCF Code of Conduct.

Trolling, insulting or derogatory comments, and personal or political attacks

from organicmaps.

Update is live on F-Droid.

Hm ... not for me :( I got an update of F-Droid itself today from 1.18.0 to 1.19.0 which was installed and is shown accordingly. But when I open the F-Droid item in the "Installed Apps" list it tells me that it was updated 3 weeks ago and has "NEW IN VERSION 1.18.0" in the description header. Furthermore there is a yellowish pattern which says that the app was developed for an older version of Android and cannot be updated automatically. In the list of versions it shows 1.18.0 as "proposed" and 1.19.0 as "installed".

Do I have an Android version issue or something? I have a Google Pixel 6a with Android 14. Not sure when it changed from 13 to 14 but it´s a while ago I think and before I got the last OM update (2023.12.20-4). But even if I allow to get incompatible app versions It does not change anything.

from organicmaps.

Update is live on F-Droid.

Hm ... not for me :( I got an update of F-Droid itself today from 1.18.0 to 1.19.0 which was installed and is shown accordingly. But when I open the F-Droid item in the "Installed Apps" list it tells me that it was updated 3 weeks ago and has "NEW IN VERSION 1.18.0" in the description header. Furthermore there is a yellowish pattern which says that the app was developed for an older version of Android and cannot be updated automatically. In the list of versions it shows 1.18.0 as "proposed" and 1.19.0 as "installed".

I saw similar weirdness with F-Droid updating itself in the same update batch. This has nothing to do with Organic Maps though.

Do I have an Android version issue or something? I have a Google Pixel 6a with Android 14. Not sure when it changed from 13 to 14 but it´s a while ago I think and before I got the last OM update (2023.12.20-4). But even if I allow to get incompatible app versions It does not change anything.

I'm on Android 14 too (Galaxy S22+) so it shouldn't be the reason. You should definitely see the newest update as suggested.

https://github.com/organicmaps/organicmaps/assets/2400026/db135a4a-5643-47fd-bba1-8ebef5abb948

It also appears on the website:
https://f-droid.org/packages/app.organicmaps/

https://github.com/organicmaps/organicmaps/assets/2400026/0761bbee-a84a-4fd0-958c-310cf157cb0d

I suspect the issue is on your end.

Edit: giant screenshots replaced with links

from organicmaps.

@biodranik they updated wordings
https://gitlab.com/fdroid/fdroiddata/-/merge_requests/14531

What is wrong now?

from organicmaps.

By the way, the next morning after my last post I got the update. So from my perspective all is fine now :)

from organicmaps.